tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5902995601163542390.post7755481751535760245..comments2023-05-04T00:51:38.758-07:00Comments on Random thoughts from Pastor Mitch: Ramblings about LentPastor Mitchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13386360436710258468noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5902995601163542390.post-20794642882300329382012-03-08T15:00:03.198-08:002012-03-08T15:00:03.198-08:00Mandi,
I will give a reply to your question in ano...Mandi,<br />I will give a reply to your question in another blog.<br />Thanks for reading and your response. I am thrilled that you are back in church, worshiping and being fed from Word and Sacrament. <br />Reply coming soon.<br />Pastor MitchPastor Mitchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5902995601163542390.post-29055026185450669662012-03-08T14:57:42.453-08:002012-03-08T14:57:42.453-08:00Thanks for the comments Bruce. Appreciate the oppo...Thanks for the comments Bruce. Appreciate the opportunity to have someone respond to the ramblings that I have made.<br /><br />Straw men are set up in most arguments whether they are intended or not. And as you rightly point out, no matter where you fall on the conversation, it is often easy to knock down others straw men while wanting yours to remain intact.<br /><br />The feeling that I have is that it has felt (from my perspective, whether it is right or not, it is still a feeling that I have had) is that while we are willing to allow a variety of worship in our midst, those who practice what might be termed "high church" style of worship, have gained the upper hand in the SID and have made the sole form of worship at all said SID events (Convention, Pastor's Conferences, etc.). Since I came back to SID 3 years ago, that is the only style of worship that has been offered making those of us who are not so enamored with "high church" feel out of place. I would feel the same way with those that practice nothing but contemporary worship. If that was all that was being offered, I would feel much the same, that we are being force fed that style of worship. The style of worship that I greatly enjoy and appreciate, and which we use here at St. Paul's, falls inbetween those two ends of the spectrum. We don't chant. We don't process. We don't use extra liturgical vestments. We worship as has been part of my Lutheran experience for most of my 50 years of life. When it is brought up here about using one of the other forms, the people balk at it and express their desire to remain as they are.<br /><br />Having said that, I come from an area where if you were not in agreement (not this district thankfully) with the form of worship, it became all out war. You were attacked at each turn, made to feel less than Lutheran if you thought otherwise, were beaten down (not literally but theologically) until you either walked away, throwing your hands in the air and not going back or you gave in because you couldn't take it any longer.<br /><br />That is not what I want to have happen in the SID. I rejoiced to to return to SID. And I do not want it to become a place of extremes where people do not talk, do not work together and do not accept those who, while remaining confessionally Lutheran, practice and worship in another form. I desire to have our district remain open to one anther, conversing with one another and moving forward together.<br /><br />So in the end, Brother Bruce, your response gives me hope. For at least there is openness and honesty. I am sure that I will continue to rant, to express myself and to set up straw men in many places. At the same time, I will remain staunchly Lutheran, entirely confessional and decidely mid-church (not high church or contemporary).pastor Mitchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5902995601163542390.post-81301182112102330962012-03-08T10:30:41.726-08:002012-03-08T10:30:41.726-08:00This is part 2 of my response. If you missed the ...This is part 2 of my response. If you missed the first part of the response, I strongly agree with what I take as the main point of the post, that is, piety should not be imposed on fellow Lutheran Christians or congregations. I do, however, have concerns with pieces of the post.<br /><br />Contrary to the thought that some are trying to be Orthodox or Catholic, I would argue that most Lutheran pastors are seeking to be Lutheran. The fact that some Lutherans share some practices in common with our Orthodox or Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ does not mean those Lutherans are seeking to become Orthodox or Catholic, just as the fact that some Lutherans share some practices in common with our Methodist, Baptist, or Church-Growth siblings in the faith does not mean those Lutherans are seeking to become Methodists, Baptists, or Church-Growthers. To suggest otherwise seems to be setting up the same straw man against the so-called confessionals that the “confessionals” sometimes set up against their fellow Lutheran pastors. <br /><br />The post indicates that most people in the pew do not desire ancient practices to be part of their worship today. That is no doubt true in some congregations; but it seems presumptuous to assume it is true of every congregation. Each congregation seems best equipped to determine what practices will best deliver Jesus to God’s people in that place.<br /><br />Finally (and readers are probably thinking, “It’s about time he get to the end of his comments!”), the note that some desire to go backward in time seems to imply that individual congregations and Christians must be unusual if they find ancient practices to be beneficial to a life of faith in Christ today. It is true that some Lutherans do not find some ancient practices to be useful. But others find many ancient practices very useful to their 21st Century faith. For instance, some Lutherans fold their hands for prayer, some make the sign of the cross, some kneel for communion, some come to private confession, some receive ashes, some bow at the name of Jesus, some like processions, some want fancy vestments on their pastors, some desire altars and pulpits and baptismal fonts in their churches. All of those are long-time practices among God’s redeemed people. And I think it is safe to say that most Lutherans continue to use one or more of those practices, meaning that most Lutherans find at least some ancient practices to be useful. We just don’t all find the same practices beneficial as we live with faith in Christ.<br /><br />As the post rightly and clearly points out, personal piety ought never be made a mark of one’s fidelity to Christ or to the Lutheran confessions. On that central point, I am in whole-hearted agreement with you, Pr. Mitch.<br /><br />Thank you for your post and for enduring my response.<br /><br />Bruce KesemanBruce Kesemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5902995601163542390.post-15048387823614604232012-03-08T10:29:11.891-08:002012-03-08T10:29:11.891-08:00Thank you for your thoughts, Pr. Mitch.
I appre...Thank you for your thoughts, Pr. Mitch. <br /><br />I appreciate your candidness. You mention that you fear that some may be offended by your comments. I, for one, am not offended in the least, even though I don't agree with everything you write. I’m grateful that you have commented and hope that my response will be helpful to the overall conversation between fellow Christians.<br /><br />I fully agree with what I perceive to be your point about personal piety—and not imposing that piety on others. <br /><br />I’ll post my comments in two parts.<br /><br />It appears to me that straw men are being set up on both sides of this issue with the result that personal piety is being imposed on others. For instance, a few of the so-called “confessionals” (among whom I am sometimes counted) set up a straw man at the SID convention by implying that those who do not use the liturgies from our hymnals either aren’t truly Lutheran or are likely to stray from Lutheranism. The voters at the convention apparently noticed the straw man, along with other potential problems with the worship resolution, so they did not pass it. (This seems to suggest that even if they desire to do so, the “confessionals” are not able to force a certain approach to worship on the SID.)<br /><br />I fear that the blog post above may unintentionally set up similar straw men and inadvertently impugn the personal piety of some fellow Christians. <br />For instance, regarding ashes, I am not aware of any pastors (although there may be some) who even silently in their minds make ashes a sign of Lutheran orthodoxy. I know at least one who is identified as “confessional”—William Cwirla—who argues strongly against the use of ashes. In most cases I do not know whether individual congregations—even those with whom I have frequent contact—do or don’t offer ashes, nor am I curious to find out. As the post rightly suggests, the piety of one individual or congregation should not be imposed on others (although we should certainly consider the implications that our practices have for those in sister congregations).<br /><br />The congregation that I serve offers an option for ashes on Ash Wednesday. There is no expectation or urging either for people to receive ashes or not receive them. So some in the congregation choose to receive ashes; others do not. Neither group seems to make any assumptions about the other. This works for our parish. However, I do not presume that this practice should be followed by others, because I do not know what will best serve the faith lives of God’s people in other congregations. Still, it appears to me that in some Lutheran congregations God's people are best served by not offering on Ash Wednesday.<br /><br />Which is to say I agree with what I think is your central point, Pr. Mitch, namely, that we should not impose a particular piety on another Lutheran Christian or congregation.<br /><br />Bruce KesemanBruce Kesemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5902995601163542390.post-19499923031564393762012-03-08T05:48:46.273-08:002012-03-08T05:48:46.273-08:00This is very interesting. I have recently started...This is very interesting. I have recently started going back to church. Although I was baptized and confirmed in the Lutheran church, I went through a time when I decided I did not want to be a member of the church anymore. It had nothing to do with the Pastor or with the beliefs of the church. Unfortunaely, it had to do with one simple Sunday and two ladies that sat behind me and talked about me. Obviously, they didn't know that I was able to hear every word they were saying, but this one incident changed my heart...for the worse. So I spent a few years with only attending my church when the letters started coming from the elders or when someone in the family was being confirmed or it was a "special" holiday for the family. I was angry and I was confused and most of all, I was stubborn. I had decided that I knew best and that I no longer needed my church. So I went to other area churches once in a while (I think I thought I was proving a point, only to whom I don't know.), and I decided I was NEVER going back to Immanuel again.<br />Fortunately, I had a change of heart this year. There was something inside of me that was missing something and it didn't take me long to figure out what it was. I missed my church. I missed being a part of something good and right. So I started going back. <br />I guess I will get to the point of me writing...things have changed there since I've been gone. We received ashes on our forehead on Ash Wednesday and our services seem to be a little different. <br />I'm not really saying I don't like the changes, but I do notice the changes. I too gave up something for Lent although I haven't heard it being brought up at church. <br />My question would be...what is a "Good Lutheran" as opposed to just being a "Good Christian"? <br />So maybe this comment kind of jumped around a little, but I would really love to have your answer to this question. <br />Thanks for letting me comment!!<br /><br />MandiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com